Auto Care ON AIR

Why Hydrogen Is Poised To Power Trucks, Buses, And Cities

• Auto Care Association • Season 1 • Episode 86

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Hydrogen isn’t waiting for someday. It’s already moving freight, carrying riders through winter, and powering the equipment that keeps cities running. We sit down with Christa Harrison of BNG Clean Fuel Corporation to unpack where hydrogen works now, what’s changing fast, and how fleets can navigate costs, infrastructure, and performance with clear eyes.

We start with the real-world signals: 50,000 hydrogen forklifts across the U.S., growing fleets of fuel cell buses, and early heavy-duty deployments that keep HVAC humming in subfreezing temps. Christa explains why transit agencies in cold regions are leaning into hydrogen for reliability, how delivery and utility trucks benefit from fast refueling and strong auxiliary power, and why medium-duty routes may be the next big wave. We compare fuel cell and hydrogen internal combustion engines, dig into tri-fuel heavy engines, and explore how drivers report diesel-like torque without the winter range penalty.

Hydrogen supply is bigger than many realize. With 10 million metric tons used annually in U.S. industry, the production know-how and safety playbooks already exist. The pivot for transport is about logistics: using modular, above-ground stations, embracing behind-the-fence fueling for predictable fleets, and adding onsite generation to avoid long-haul trucking and boil-off. Christa breaks down unit pitfalls that skew analysis, the total value equation beyond pump price, and the practical path from pilot to scale.

Financing and policy round out the roadmap. Investors want credible milestones, offtake commitments, and conservative cash plans. Grants and tax credits help, but resilient models can’t depend on them. We touch on natural hydrogen exploration, retrofit opportunities that extend vehicle life, and how Detroit’s engineering ecosystem accelerates prototyping and partnerships. If you’re evaluating options for buses, Class 5–8 trucks, or mixed municipal fleets, this conversation gives you a grounded framework to decide where hydrogen slots into your energy toolkit.

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Mike Chung:

Welcome to Autocare on Air, a candid podcast for a curious industry. I'm Mike Chung, Senior Director of Market Intelligence at the Auto Care Association, and this is Indicators, where we identify and explore data that will help you monitor and forecast industry performance. This includes global economic data, industry indicators, and new data sources. Hello and welcome to another episode of On Air Indicators. I'm Mike Chung, your host for today, and I'm delighted to introduce Krista Harrison of BNG Clean Fuel Corporation. Welcome to the program, Krista.

Christa Harrison:

Thank you, Michael. Good morning.

Mike Chung:

And it was so great to meet you. We met over lunch at the Move Mobility Conference in Detroit. How did you enjoy the conference?

Christa Harrison:

Oh, it was really great. They had a lot of uh great speakers, and it's actually a the Move organization is international. So it was interesting that it was their first one in Detroit, even though Detroit is obviously Motor Central. Um, but a lot of uh great people and when conferences maybe have lower attendance, this one was really great.

Mike Chung:

Terrific. And I think we both know that um Move is really a mobility conference. We see all types of vehicles. Can you tell us a little bit more about Move?

Christa Harrison:

Oh, uh so with Move, I think they were looking at uh new technologies. So there was a lot about um, you know, obviously electric vehicles, there's a lot of power, um AI was really big, and autonomous vehicles uh was also a big um topic there. Uh but then also there were some discussions on hydrogen, which is you know why it was really there, and I think why we're talking today.

Mike Chung:

Exactly. And for those of uh our listeners who may not be familiar with Move, as Krista highlighted, it was the first time we've had it in Detroit. I had the uh pleasure of attending for several years when it was in Austin, Texas. And um, when describing it to other people, I've it it basically became clear it's almost everything but um airplanes and ships, right? It's like buses, trains, uh transit, uh heavy-duty trucks, autonomous trucks, all the things with uh vehicles that you or I might drive, and some of the financing that goes around it. So really a fascinating conference. And we got to meet because your company is kind of a pioneer in hydrogen. So tell us a little bit about BNG Clean Fuel Corporation and what your organization does, Krista.

Christa Harrison:

Sure. Uh so BNG Clean Fuel Corporation is uh building a vertically integrated company from production of hydrogen all the way to the distribution for uh vehicles or even some industrial uh customers. So we're really looking to try and bring a uh fuel that will help to uh cut down on greenhouse gases. Um it's something that's really important to all of us. And uh, you know, that it's not just about reducing the carbon emissions, but also just you know great new technologies. Um we'll talk a little bit about uh more of the the new developments because you know a lot of people have talked about hydrogen you know being around for a long time, but you know, it hasn't really taken on, and and there's lots of great new technologies.

Mike Chung:

That sounds so fascinating. And how long has BNG been operating then?

Christa Harrison:

So BNG formed, you know, we're just a startup with just a few of us in uh Colorado. Um there are a lot of um issues with the clean air in um Denver because of the valleys, you know, you think with the mountains, you know, you think of nice clean air, but they have some issues there. And um, you know, just transitioning, the um other founders, co-founders, Elliot and um Offsall, they um have worked in the oil and gas industry um and seen you know a lot of the changes and then just looked for you know new opportunities with hydrogen. Um and myself I've worked in powertrain strategy and you know really see hydrogen as an alternative fuel compared to you know all the challenges you know that might be um with some of the EV batteries, it doesn't really work for all you know applications necessarily.

Mike Chung:

So thanks for sharing that. And you had told me that your role as a strategic advisor involves business development, financial management. Can you tell us a little bit more about your day-to-day?

Christa Harrison:

Sure. Um yeah, well, actually, you know, with strategic advisor, it means kind of take care of everything. So um, you know, it's it's really interesting. Um, and I have had some you know, kind of sales roles or you know, working externally uh with customers before, but um, this is uh something that's a little newer for me, uh directly working with customers um and with government officials, also trying to plan you know for you know site selection, uh so working with government officials. Um I've worked with some uh grants and incentives with other you know cities in in uh Michigan and now really working closely with the city of Detroit. Um so that's really interesting to really be in touch with you know what's happening locally. And that's that's really where a lot of the development and and even funding is coming from hydrogen now uh versus some of the federal programs.

Mike Chung:

I see. And uh you had mentioned the company is based in Colorado, but you're based in Detroit.

Christa Harrison:

Right, right. Okay, actually, um, so the founders reached out to me with my automotive experience. This way I can, you know, have a lot of connections in the automotive industry from my background. And also here in Michigan, there's also the great opportunity because obviously there's all the technology RD centers here in Michigan, um, so we can really be in touch with a lot of the vehicle launches. Um there are vehicles, hydrogen vehicles, primarily in California and um Texas. And so then when some of the new prototypes are launched, we're hoping to have opportunity to supply the hydrogen uh to the companies doing the launches here in Michigan.

Mike Chung:

That's terrific. Uh, thanks for sharing that background. And you mentioned something about powertrain strategy. Can you tell us a little bit about some of the different aspects of automotive that you've worked in and then how you came to um jump on board BNG?

Christa Harrison:

Right, right. Well, so I I've you know worked in a few different uh companies. One, you know, starting with an industrial ceramics company that did supply uh parts into the automotive and a few other industries. Um so that was really exciting for, and a lot of it was commercial vehicles for you know, really trying to get a lot of power and having to haul a lot of freight or or do different things with trucks, cranes, those kind types of things. And you know, my time at Ford Motor Company, I you know, spent time in you know product development, so working with kind of you know all the different teams, you know, the product development system, um, trying to manage that. And and then with my time, you know, I did actually work in China. And so um I was you know working for you know one of the smaller vehicles that you know was sold in the you know Europe and Asian markets. And you know, you with the whole entire powertrain system, you have an engine and you want it to be fuel efficient, you know, you have the transmission of you know how it's gonna drive, and then you know, you also have the you know exhaust system to see how you're gonna you know deal with emissions. And you know, as you have to, you know, try and increase the performance of all of those, there's a lot more cost. And so then it's always the balance between performance of the vehicle and then you know, certainly with all of the other features as well. And so I just saw how the the costs were increasing over time, especially for the emissions control and the exhaust systems. Um, and so and and it it translated exactly to some of those same minerals or the same cost increases in you know the EV batteries. So, you know, just trying to think of another fuel. And I think too, you know, working around all the engineers, and really some of the best engine engineers globally, you know, we had people in Germany, India, Europe, you know, obviously North America as well, you know, really just seeing how to you know how to tweak an engine was really exciting.

Mike Chung:

So that's fascinating. And you you meant you touch on something interesting in terms of I feel like as a car culture, the United States and other advanced countries, our expectations are pretty high. We're sort of used to a certain level of performance, features, functionality. So if a new technology, a new powertrain or new power source comes along, the consumers they want it to be like from the get-go, very, very good, right?

Christa Harrison:

Right, right. And I think you know, seamless and you know, not kind of any change to you know what they're really used to.

Mike Chung:

Exactly. Yeah, yeah. So like thinking about um vehicles and hydrogen, can you talk a little bit about um how many hydrogen vehicles there are, whether in the United States or globally, and the types of vehicles those might kind of go across?

Christa Harrison:

Yeah, um actually um if we talk more about the US, um because you know globally, you know, we there's kind of different pockets of you know some of the different deployments. Um and what's really interesting is that the the largest volume of hydrogen type vehicles in the US are actually uh forklifts. So forklifts, right? So um I think people know that there's obviously, you know, there were the diesel propane uh battery, and then there are now the hydrogen uh forklifts. So there's probably about 50,000 of those in the US. So that's really again touching on how yeah, hydrogen is in use all around us, but you know, it's just uh different than you know, vehicles people are driving uh themselves.

Mike Chung:

And I think you had shared in terms of passenger cars, there's nearly 20,000 of them.

Christa Harrison:

Right. Yes. So and you know, a lot of those are in California, but even the um Honda CRV is produced uh not very far from me, uh south of here in Ohio.

Mike Chung:

Okay, terrific. And then I think you had also mentioned electric buses as well as heavy duty trucks. Can you tell us a little bit about those?

Christa Harrison:

Yeah, so um for heavy duty trucks, you know, one of the suppliers, uh Nicolas, so they had uh maybe over uh 200 uh trucks that were delivered as of uh the middle of or maybe the beginning of this year. Um there are uh maybe around uh 60 to 70 uh fuel uh fuel cell buses. So um there is, and this is where we can kind of touch on that there's the two methods of using hydrogen fuel, either a fuel cell, which is like a battery pack but uses the hydrogen as the fuel. So the pack is a little bit more, um a little less intense with the uh minerals that are needed compared to a full electric battery. And then also in an internal combustion engine as well. So most of the deployments for the heavy-duty trucks are with the fuel cell.

Mike Chung:

Oh, thanks for thanks for touching on that. And thinking about, I just want to touch on those forklifts a little bit. Like the performance. I mean, 50,000 forklifts, and you said there are other uh power sources available. Is there a performance advantage that you're seeing with the hydrogen power like for the forklifts? Like is there a compelling value proposition that way?

Christa Harrison:

Um do you know, actually forklifts isn't really you know one of my um expertise uh per se, although I I do more know a little bit more about uh making them autonomous from some of the uh other work that I did at a company for uh systems automation. Um so I've worked on the product development side and then also the kind of equipment side and even a supplier too of parts and automotives.

Mike Chung:

Right, right. Well, sorry to put you on the spot like that, but I think but I think it's interesting from uh sort of a use case perspective, right? Because if there are electric buses, there are heavy-duty trucks, I think about the different use cases in a country as far-spanning as America with so many different uh weather considerations. You mentioned the valleys uh beneath the mountains where perhaps the air can get trapped from an air quality perspective. And then from a passenger vehicle, a commuter, an um industrial site. And I think that it certainly seems clear to me, at least, that forklifts, and I'm sure there are going to be other applications where you have a specialized, you kind of a niche that can be really filled well by alternative power. And that kind of brings me to my next question, going back to BNG is um solutions for fleets, for instance. So when I think of fleets, it's certain a lot of things come to mind. It could be a rental car agency, it could be a municipality, a school district. Am I on the right path here, Krista?

Christa Harrison:

Well, you know, for rental cars, um maybe not initially. Um, just like there were, you know, where some of the deployments of you know electric vehicles and you know, it works where there's you know the infrastructure and charging stations. Um, but just like you said for municipalities, so certainly hydrogen buses. Um there's a fleet of hydrogen buses even in Flint, Michigan, and then also a fairly large fleet uh with the um SARDA organization in um Ohio as well. So um, and actually at the Move conference, there was a representative from the Flint Umit Agency, and he mentioned that they do have some full electric buses, and the performance in the winter time is is just not the same as with hydrogen. You know, they can certainly rely on on the hydrogen uh with the the performance, um, you know, and and he said they're even having to stretch their um total you know driving because they're actually driving for uh some of the schools. So, you know, across across the US, there's actually an issue with um, you know, needing school bus drivers and then maybe even the equipment, right? So as we're looking at, you know, how to try and you know utilize resources as communities are are challenged, then maybe that's a way to come kind of combine you know transport within the communities.

Mike Chung:

So if I'm hearing you correctly, so Flint has a program with electric buses, but in the cold winter, the the battery life, the battery range is not quite as strong, which is pretty well known. Right. But hydrogen in cold weather, it's it sounds like it's really not an issue. Am I hearing that correctly?

Christa Harrison:

Yeah, not at all. Not at all. And and certainly too, uh there was even discussion about the challenge of you know providing the heat or air conditioning on the electric buses, that it really affects the overall performance. And there's there's actually some supplemental um diesel power for some of the electric buses. It might be some of the older models, but in order just to power the air conditioning and the heat. But with hydrogen, you know, it's still you know, the the the similar system is any of the diesel buses.

Mike Chung:

That's that's fascinating, yeah, because uh, like you said, the HVAC, that's an energy-intensive operation. And the hydrogen and at least the newer EV technologies are able to accommodate those needs, right? Yeah. So thinking about, you know, so shifting from kind of vehicles and fleets, and or maybe one last thing about the fleets is how exciting it is to see these um sort of test cases being proven out in the quote unquote real world to really um kind of like the early adoption of technology, right? When you can have a success story from a municipality, from a school district, and but and and you uh you did point out a good point regarding um infrastructure. So something like a Hertz or an enterprise, that's a little bit different than a singular school district, a singular municipality, but it sounds like um we're seeing success. So that's that sounds promising for the future of hydrogen.

Christa Harrison:

Right, right. And and thinking about fleets as you know, we maybe talk about that, um, that there's certainly opportunity, and there are you know, some deployments of um, you know, you would think that if there's a full fleet of of trucks, you know, probably maybe 10 or more, um, and they could just have the fueling, you know, right there on site. Um, and so then you know they can you know just continually use the fuel and not having to have it shipped, which is actually really the best model for deploying hydrogen to not transport it a long distance in trucks.

Mike Chung:

Okay. Well, that's a great segue to fuel because I think we've talked a little bit about availability of fuel, um, where it's sourced, how it's produced. Can you talk to us a little bit about the availability of hydrogen fuel? Where are you getting it, how you're manufacturing it, how your company plays in that space as an advisor, if you will?

Christa Harrison:

Sure. You know, actually um hydrogen is used um quite a lot in the US in um processing. And you know, I got a few numbers so then people could kind of have an understanding, although this will also talk about how um you know hydrogen and energy um is really managed in the US. Sure. Um so the market size um in uh 2024 was around uh 22 uh billion, and there were uh 10 million metric tons that was used. And it's primarily used in uh refining petroleum, um, so oil refining and and making different um kind of lubricants and things with that. Um and also ammonia production and steel production. And so if you drive by any you know large factory, then they're probably using hydrogen actually as a like a raw material rather than a uh fuel. Um there are other you know applications to uh power it. Um but then looking at other um gases, so uh natural gas though was a hundred billion, so versus twenty-two million. But it's actually interesting when you look at natural gas figures, uh, because uh we apparently uh uh export a lot of natural gas. So when there's actually the production and trying to, you know, just isolate the use um in the US. And and I think you know, think thinking about data um too, I think is really how we started uh talking and meeting. Um so when you think about with AI kind of consolidating a lot of data, I think it's really careful, you know, you need to be careful about um what the different units are. Um, because looking at these different fuels, so you know, you have hydrogen that's quoted in metric tons. Um natural gas is quoted in uh cubit cubic feet per day. And then even looking at um propane, um that's also in um uh units per day. So um and the pro propane, so that oh let's see, so um natural gas was maybe about um 800 metric tons versus the the 10 million for hydrogen, and then propane uh was about 2.6. Um, but it was interesting too when we had talked about forklifts, there's maybe about 750,000 propane uh forklifts in use in the US, right?

Mike Chung:

Okay. And you said there were about 50, was it 50,000 um hydrogen forklifts? I'm checking my notes here.

Christa Harrison:

Yes, uh, that's a pretty good debt.

Mike Chung:

50,000 versus 750,000. That's that's uh that's pretty significant progress, yeah.

Christa Harrison:

Right. Well, I mean it's a you know, but then it's also another you know opportunity um to you know transfer from the uh propane to um to hydrogen. Um but then there's Even school buses that are powered with uh propane as well.

Mike Chung:

True, true.

Christa Harrison:

Right. Yes. Um, but thinking of you know natural gas, uh, so obviously we here in Michigan we use it to uh heat our homes. Um and you know, that's not necessarily, you know, down in Texas, I think we all learned that they were using electricity. Um, I did live in Texas um kind of growing up, so um, you know, there's just different uses um in the U.S. But even here in Michigan, there are uh some vans and trucks that are the part of the fleet of consumers power um that are actually powered with natural gas. So there is already some experience of using, you know, obviously different fuels, propane and natural gas, and then now hydrogen in vehicles that we're using today.

Mike Chung:

That's fascinating. Thanks for uh sketching out those numbers. So as you said, hydrogen is about $22 billion, 10 million metric tons, natural gas, about a hundred billion dollar market, 800 million metric tons, propane was at 2.6 million metric tons. And like you said, we have to be careful of the units. And as you highlighted, hydrogen, that's overall, that's as a source for chemical manufacturing, for ammonia production, as well as hydrogen as a fuel. Am I uh reiterating those correctly?

Christa Harrison:

Yes, yes.

Mike Chung:

Okay, so when we think about hydrogen comparing it to say diesel compared to gasoline, now it could be a little apples to oranges to bananas, depending on the units, but can you kind of uh put that in in the context of our, I guess, our most dominant fuels, if you will, for uh vehicles?

Christa Harrison:

Well, and with the applications for hydrogen, it's usually again the heavy-duty trucks, um, you know, buses and others. So the the main comparator is with diesel. Um and um so looking at the performance of the um engines, it's actually you know really comparable. Um, so a lot of the um comparisons are also with um you know, what is the cost of hydrogen? That's really one of the challenges, but that's one thing that that we're working on. And um then also it's the the other systems. So, like I said, with the whole entire powertrain system, you know, once you're using hydrogen, then you're only needing just a little bit of uh after treatment versus the full kind of exhaust system um that's needed for diesel. So you kind of have to look at the the total value package, but then certainly with the performance of um hydrogen, you know, the from the real you know driver fleet experience, they're you know really saying that it's on par. And there's actually you know quite a lot of um analysis that that's being done and and new technologies. Um if you don't mind, I can talk about um, you know, I attended the hydrogen engine alliance um conference just last week. Um it was held at uh University of Michigan, and um you know the analysis and you know it it certainly there are you know some um you know researchers so from the university, Argonne National Lab, but then they actually had the industry um experts who are really, I mean, the technology and people have said, oh, well, you know, there was a hydrogen engine, and what what happened to that? Well, the the technologies now um and the efficiency and you know any of the modifications that are needed compared to a diesel engine, I mean, we're really now at the edge of being on par with cost, performance, and you know, really making it a viable option for efficiency and cost.

Mike Chung:

And earlier you mentioned that being in Detroit, um, I would imagine that promotes opportunities to partner with the manufacturers to see where we can have hydrogen as a fuel for a new model that's coming out. So I'd hope that because thinking about um the GMs, the Fords, the Stellantis companies of the world, they have certainly they're invested very deep in petroleum, right? But I would hope that there's opportunity for kind of making the hydrogen passenger vehicles a little bit more um growing that that portion of our car park. Am I thinking correct about this correctly, Krista?

Christa Harrison:

Yes. So there are um developments on the uh passenger vehicle side. Um so the vehicles on the road, there is the Toyota Mirai, um, the there's the Honda CRV, and there's the um Honda I oh I'm sorry, I forgot the name. Um, but actually, just because of the infrastructure for hydrogen fuel, then they're primarily um you know sold and driven in California. And then there's you know maybe some deployments in um in Texas. But that's actually what you know uh BNG is really trying to take that opportunity to provide you know a fueling station and then actually with our hydrogen technology um to have the production here in Michigan so then we could actually serve some of those vehicles. So that's on the passenger side, but there's actually more developments on the kind of mid-sized truck. I think you know there's some of the truck manufacturers um here, you know. I I I know of some prototypes, so I can't really say, you know, oh yeah, total, totally understood.

Mike Chung:

But when you say mid-size I'm sorry, when you say mid-sized trucks, I think about say Amazon and all the delivery vehicles. So these could be like maybe it's class five or class six medium duty vehicles. So there's between Amazon, UPS, DHL, FedEx, I I think there's there's just uh sounds like there's some growing opportunities in that space.

Christa Harrison:

Right. And then there's also you know, some of the other trucks where it seems more, you know, kind of like a you know, DTE, you know, type truck where you know there's some that have the the lift.

Mike Chung:

I'm sorry, DTE.

Christa Harrison:

Right. Yeah, it yeah. Oh, I'm sorry, I forget you're not so that's Detroit Edison, so uh the electricity, yes.

Mike Chung:

Okay, gotcha. So utilities then, yeah.

Christa Harrison:

Right, right. Yeah, so good old you know, Detroit Edison, you know, they've still got the name here in um in Michigan. Uh yeah, so for you know, some of the vehicles where it seems like more just you know, kind of the the bigger truck kind of a between a box truck and a pickup truck, so but still the class five and six. So you know, there's some opportunity with that. And there are, you know, even I can talk about you know the Cummins engine. So they have the X15 engine that um is going to be tri-fuel. So you know yeah, natural gas, diesel or um hydrogen.

Mike Chung:

So you know that could an engine that can is compound the one engine that can take any of those fuels.

Christa Harrison:

Right.

Mike Chung:

Fascinating.

Christa Harrison:

Right. Now now they may need some different, you know, in the whole powertrain system might need some other modifications.

Mike Chung:

Of course.

Christa Harrison:

Yeah, but they've they've announced that. So that could be, you know, put into you um, you know, a lot of those different applications. Um and then with uh heavy-duty trucks, so there are the you know the fuel cell trucks, um, but then also you know, you could use a um transition um and actually some of the labs at uh University of Michigan, they let us tour those too. And so you know they're looking at and and actually so they had some different engines that um they had gotten from you know different um suppliers. So um, you know, and you when you think of heavy duty trucks, and maybe I'll just you know list uh a lot of them. So then, but you know, obviously there's you know Magtruck and PACAR and Volvo and Daimler and um you know many others, like Freightliner and Peter Belt, you know, so yeah. Um there's uh you know many of them you know taking a look at you know kind of all these um different fuels too.

Mike Chung:

So that's encouraging to hear. And when you mentioned utilities, DTE, that's a whole nother set of fleets right there.

Christa Harrison:

So right, right. And then when you think about you know garbage trucks, um, you know, fire engines, ambulance. So a lot of these, you know, they have other systems and you know things, you know, or as salt trucks, right? You need to have the hoist, you know, and all of that takes you know a lot of and it's really bursts of power um that that are really needed. And that's why you need you know, kind of big power to support that.

Mike Chung:

Right. And earlier you touched on the where the fuel is sourced and transport. So this is a very basic question, but for my and perhaps other listeners' benefits, in terms of production, should I be thinking about hydrogen, like I'm thinking about oil, where you have to transport it from point A to point B? It needs to be kind of whether it's mined from the earth or it's or drilled from the earth or produced in a factory. Can you tell us a little bit more about like the manufacturing? Um is it localized in certain areas? Because I think I read something about the USGS, the geological survey discovering a new source of hydrogen, which kind of ups that capacity, perhaps.

Christa Harrison:

Right, right. Well, maybe we could we'll talk about that first and then I'll talk about production since you've got to.

Mike Chung:

I'd love that. Thank you.

Christa Harrison:

Yeah. So um with the the survey, um, that is um just kind of general looking at if you think about it from a top topography level, and um there are uh some you know actual um discoveries in um Kansas where people have done the exploration and I think um some other areas um nearby uh Kansas. And then certainly Michigan, you know, there was the the darker uh block. Um and that's actually you know some of the expertise you know for my team as well. Um they've um you know traveled around the world and and you would look um in the exploration to detect you know what was in the ground. Um there are a few challenges. Um so you know, first um you have to make sure if you you know open the big field, the the hydrogen could just you know kind of you know come out, come out of the ground without actually capturing it. Um and then you know there's a different atmosphere too, different conditions, you know, to say whether or not it's stable or you know, really what you know, if it's a kind of long-term source versus you know a pocket that may just dissipate over time. So um, you know, really looking, you know, and it there really need to be experts in the field. Um there are a few different groups in um Michigan, you know, starting to, you know, take a look at that. Um, you know, obviously you have to work um very closely with the state for any uh permitting. And um so for you know, getting, you know, just like with oil or even with natural gas, you know, with natural hydrogen, um, you know, you could, you know, if if all conditions are right and you have a good supply, you can you know put it on trucks, but primarily, you know, something of a large supply then works with distribution through pipelines. But then there's also a lot of infrastructure that's needed uh for that. And then you know you really need to say you know who's going to use it. Um and so that's you know, really, you know, under development. And then you know, with transportation, we can talk about so for hydrogen, um, they do need to have specialized tanker trucks. And um there is um basically some, you know, and there's different terms for it, but the concept is like there's like um you know, it dissipates or like evaporation, or they call it burnoff. So if if you let's say if you were to drive all the way you know across the US in a big tanker truck, um, and do it, there's there's only a certain percent, it's not like it dissipates by you know 50%, but it's it's certainly a consideration. And then also the the um tankers that are needed. Although when I was talking about new technologies, there's even a company here in Michigan, Noble Gas, and they are actually you have tanks that are certified for um hydrogen, so it's great to have so many new technologies developed here in Michigan, um, so then we can really um have this as a good you know market for us. Um, and then so for the use today, a lot of the production is really on site, or you know, when you think about these very large steel factories, it's not just you know kind of one one building. There's you know a lot of space for all the raw materials, and then you know, obviously what's produced going out. So then the then there's usually the hydrogen produced uh right there on site, and then you know, just um kind of filtered through you know internally within the the you know kind of factory. Um but then you know for um you know some of the uses now, you know, there could be essentially like you know, a kind of microgrid concept where you know there could be smaller scales and a lot of the new technologies for hydrogen production are taking that model. So then there could be kind of modular um you know system to say, okay, you know, what's the demand, you know, in this area for like a fleet, or we're saying behind the fence, you know, so if it was for forklifts or just you know, a certain company has you know so many trucks that you know travel around you know locally or the US, then you know they could have it just right on their site and only for use for their company. Or then if there's more of a public station that could take any of these trucks, or if there happen to be some passenger vehicles, so more of a public station, and that's what we're planning. We could actually do either one. Um, and there's different sizes of the stations too, of whether you know it's kind of um kind of well for us, you know, like maybe 1.3 ton. And with some of these fueling stations, you know, they can just, you know, they kind of come on a truck and you don't have to dig underground. You know, you think of all these gas stations that are all around, and usually they have these large tanks, you know, under the ground. So again, there's more of these kind of modular uh systems. So then, you know, for deployments, right? And you know, I think it's you know, everyone's thinking now with infrastructure, right? You know, it's a challenge and and there's a lot of ups upfront capital costs. So, you know, how do you kind of start with a smaller, you know, pilot or smaller system, and then you can just grow as there's more more use for it? Um, or even new technologies, right? You know, it it's it's very interesting. You you look around and you see you know some of these, you know, even you know, people complain about electric wires on poles now compared to underground or you know, with distribution, you know, auxiliary power is something that you know a lot of people are looking at, and hydrogen can actually be used for that as well.

Mike Chung:

That's fascinating. So if I'm hearing you correctly, hydrogen is naturally occurring, so it can be extracted as a source, and there are considerations you highlighted regarding uh the permanence of the site, the um the purity of the hydrogen you're extracting, and it can be transported via truck and uh through pipeline, but it can also be manufactured on site in in the kind of a chemical manufacturing facility setting and then transported locally or however long it needs to go from there. And it sounds to me that your company, if you're meeting with the prospective client, then you're identifying, okay, where are we going to source the hydrogen? Can if it's in California, perhaps there's some infrastructure there. If it is in another part of the country that doesn't have the infrastructure, perhaps it can be manufactured either on site or nearby. So am I kind of thinking about it the right way with regard to the solution that your company would provide, Krista?

Christa Harrison:

Initially, you know, let's say if we were to open a station now, we would need to purchase uh the hydrogen. Um, and it is available from a few different companies. Um, you know, and and like I said, you know, with any of the you know, um steel manufacturing, there's quite a lot of that um here in Michigan. So there is availability. Um, and you know, we would just have you know tankers delivered. But what we are planning with our uh hydrogen technology that we're developing, um it is gonna take some time to commercialize, but then we would plan to have that in you know, kind of a scaled uh production. So depending on the demand, we could have you know a smaller, larger you know, facility.

Mike Chung:

Oh, that's that's really fascinating. So I mean it it's just really um I'm learning so much in terms of this it hydrogen has been around, um, but it's still in its uh in some ways its nascent stages for growing and and uh kind of penetrating the market more. So um you know, you you highlighted data, you highlighted the amount um of hydrogen that's available, thinking about um when you go to investors, when you're going to pitch the uh pitch the solution, what kind of things are are is your audience looking for and kind of like the quality of data that's behind it? Can you talk to that aspect of things?

Christa Harrison:

Right, right. Um yeah, actually it's really interesting, and you know, uh it also evolves over time, I think, with what you know venture capital is interested in, uh particularly because there's so much interest in AI, right? So, first off, you know, we have to get the attention of the investors, but I think they realize that there's you know hard tech is what it's really called. So, you know, trying to make something. So having the hydrogen you know technology as an opportunity, um, and certainly we're planning to have a significantly lower cost, um, maybe even you know half of what the industry cost is uh today. And so that's you know exciting for them. And I think it's just you know having um more of you know kind of realistic numbers. I I hear a lot that they're like, well, you know, we don't want to see your sales going to a billion, right? How many companies are billion dollar you know revenue cost uh companies? So um, and you know, if if we were to, you know, maybe have 10 factories, maybe we would get there, but you have to, you know, start start with one. So I think it's really critical to show you know really more of the the milestones. Um and you know, talking about you know off-take agreements, that's really you know, any of the you know, hydrogen or other um kind of gaseous companies, you're looking at off-take agreements. So are you gonna have a customer that's going to you know buy from you at it at least, you know, you you need to know what your break-even is, right? So then, you know, if if you everyone thinks, well, you know, it's really five or ten, or if your break-even is 200 and there's only 200 trucks on the road, right? They do some kind of sanity checking for sure, you know, what what the real um you know customer demand could be.

Mike Chung:

And then the corresponding timeline, like you mentioned, project milestones, right?

Christa Harrison:

Right, right. You know, and and having a clear um sense of what the cash flow is. Um, so I know you know previously, you know, and and people always give these announcements of of money that they've they've raised, but um, I think now is the time where there may be a commitment, but not necessarily, and and let's just say round numbers, 100 million. If if if you know a company is giving 100 million, you know, they may not issue a hundred million, you know, day one. They may have tracked these these milestones and you know, really looking at um you know what the forecast is, you know, what is long lead, you know, understanding in someone who said, okay, well, you know, maybe like for us, you know, with our station, you know, our you know, if we're not going to have it on the ground for six months, but maybe we need to pay a deposit, what do we need, you know, to really prepare the site? I think, you know, that's you know, some of the considerations. Um, and I think, you know, with a lot of uh startups, you know, I've I've been around to a lot of the different um they call incubators here in Michigan. There's many of them. You know, there's new lab that's doing a lot of great work. I'm, you know, a member of Tech Town. And, you know, people will think about their, you know, kind of individual unit and and oh, you know, we're producing this, you know, this is you know, the what we need, the materials we need to buy, but you know, putting into a great big facility and managing that with all the power that you need, you need air compressors, other things, and then really the cash flow. And and actually I I've become an advisor for quite a few startups that I've met basically just to help them, you know, think about how to manage the the cash flow and what they might need. And you know, there's also working capital, like how many materials do you have to buy and and all the systems that they need. So um that's something that's that's really critical. You know, maybe a few years ago when you know interest rates were really low, you know, people you know could could do do a lot, but now you know, working with banks for you know different, you know, credit facilities or um you know just a bit different ways of of cash, and there's you know shifts in the market too that that can happen, or you know, look what happened, you know, with maybe some of these cyber incidents or you know, other um just just things happened. So you really have to kind of plan for different situations.

Mike Chung:

Well, that's really fascinating insight. And at the top of the program, we talked about your role and the many hats that you wear. And just the what you just described speaks so largely to the sound financial planning, scenario planning, the what-if. You mentioned interest rates. We've had changes in administrations. There may be programs that are more favorable for newer environmental technologies. So, like, can you tell us a little bit about how you're factoring things like interest rates or um uh promotion of alternative fuels from a um government and a regulatory perspective? I mean, those are considerations I would think you have to take into account because you you mentioned a lot of things with regard to when do you need this infrastructure and you know how is the money metered out, if you will. Can you talk to that a little bit more?

Christa Harrison:

Yeah, sure. Um yeah, and with our planning, uh we are looking at different um you know lease models and financing that does take into consider the interest rates. So, you know, we are always you know a bit conservative uh with that planning. And you know, with the government grants, um, it was something that we thought as an opportunity, but not necessarily in our you know main business model and calculations. Um just because one, you know, uh when we there were some of the programs uh last year, you know, we did um enter into the RFP for you know with the hydrogen hub, there were some different projects. But we always knew federal money money wouldn't necessarily come fast. So uh we thought of it as an opportunity and you know something we were active with, but some of those programs have been canceled. And so um, and there is still the uh you know tax credit for production. Um so that's something that you know we really are trying to capitalize on. But again, that's just you know kind of another line in our um financial models. So I think having taking a layered approach and you know, when it comes to um AI, it it may uh facilitate, but also uh kind of uh make it more uh complicated to try and look, you know, layer in those different opportunities and risks um within a financial model and scenario planning. So I think it's just really uh important to kind of keep track of of the different models because, you know, and actually it was interesting. I did uh talk to uh one um uh bank. Um it was a presentation for small businesses talking about you know the small business administration um loans and programs. And uh when it came to scenario planning, they said, you know, don't put it in. They're like, we'll do we'll run our own models. Just give us your, you know, what you really think you're confident with. Um so you know, maybe that's a little tip too, you know, just be you know clear about uh the numbers. And um, I think you know, even with AI, I would say, you know, keep track of you know what what the prompts that you you know really asked, you know, AI or or the different models to do.

Mike Chung:

Um yeah, that makes sense from uh here are my assumptions, here are the governing principles, here are the other considerations, and AI can certainly perhaps be another input to that, but the human, like you said, sanity check and just kind of keeping account of all the considerations becomes really, really important. You know, Krista, this has been such a fascinating conversation. And as we look to wrap up, is there anything else you'd like to highlight that perhaps we hadn't had a chance to touch on up to this point?

Christa Harrison:

Well, you know, I I think um with hydrogen, I mean, there have been a few challenges, you know, cancellation of some of the programs, um, you know, and and with industry, um maybe taking um you not as not as much um kind of interest in um deploying some of the trucks. I mean, it is an investment. It's a very expensive investment to add whether you're transitioning to any new vehicle. Like I said, you know, with school buses, some of those are older. What are they transitioning? So there is actually another model too of uh retrofitting some uh vehicles or they're calling repowering. So that's another opportunity to, you know, kind of work with a piece of equipment that's there, and you know, then with um very little additional expense, and then you know, can make the machinery more you know efficient. Everyone thinks you know, you add a new engine into an old truck, um, just as long as it's not going to shake apart, you know, that's that's another option um within the industry as well. So there's a lot of great opportunity, new technologies, um, the efficiency, um, the use, you know, a lot of the drivers, you know, are really happy uh you know with the performance. And so it you know, it's a really great time for people to really be brave enough to to launch because you know it's just gonna be kind of a uh a snowball effect of of deployments and and hopefully uh you know we'll have great success here in Michigan and and other states in the U.S.

Mike Chung:

Oh, what exciting propositions. Thanks for bringing up the retrofitting example too, because certainly that makes a lot of economic sense in a lot of cases. So to your point about financial modeling, it could be the best uh scenario to go with for uh for a variety of organizations. So um just a couple of fun closeout questions. You mentioned living in you said China, you've been in Texas, Michigan, and other parts of the country. What are some of the favorite foods and like uh things that you've uh sort of acquired along the way?

Christa Harrison:

Yeah, so actually, well, I really love berries. So raspberries, anything, and and actually, well, one place lived in uh Washington State, and we would go with my family and pick some wild uh raspberries and blackberries.

Mike Chung:

Oh, you can't beat fresh off the vines, right?

Christa Harrison:

I know, I know. And um and then brisket. So, you know, for my days in Texas, um, you know, a good friend of mine in high school, his mom would do, you know, make her own barbecue sauce and smoke the brisket for hours or days or something, and you you just really can't beat it.

Mike Chung:

So I'm getting hungry just thinking about it. Have you made your own brisket then? Have you been inspired to do the slow cut?

Christa Harrison:

Well, you know, I we've we've done it a few times, but you know, it's just not just not as good. So I I leave it to the people that are smokers, the ones who really love what they do, and they're the ones that it's it's a process.

Mike Chung:

It's it's a lot of time, yeah.

Christa Harrison:

Right.

Mike Chung:

Right. And then in terms of uh places you like to spend time, whether activities, vacation spots, or there it seems like you've been able to travel a little bit around the world. So what are some of the places that perhaps you uh love going to and recommend to friends or that you may be looking to on the horizon?

Christa Harrison:

Well, you know, actually I really love um Italy. Um so just you know, I I studied Latin as my foreign language. We could talk about that a whole other day. But you know, it's really interesting. I've traveled there, you know, quite a few times and certainly like around Pompeii. I you know, I've had always wanted to go there. It's great. And then there's others, you know, you can just drive around, and there's so many just you know, kind of historical sites to see that aren't on the main, you know, kind of uh you know, list of most of the tourists and um just really enjoy your fresh seafood and and um you know the the whole entire environment uh in Italy. There's many other places um around the world that have something similar to, but that's you know a special spot for me.

Mike Chung:

Well, thanks for sharing that and um great food selections from berries to brisket to seafood and in Italy. You can't go wrong, it sounds like. So, Krista, thanks again for spending the time with me. Thank you to all of our listeners. We hope you enjoyed and learned a little bit from this uh episode. And until the next time, we bid you all a great day. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of Auto Care on Air. Make sure to subscribe to our podcast so that you never miss an episode. Don't forget to leave us a rating and review. It helps others discover our show. Auto Care on Air is proud to be a production of the Auto Care Association, dedicated to advancing the autocare industry and supporting professionals like you. To learn more about the association and its initiatives, visit autocare.org.

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Behzad Rassuli

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Jacki Lutz

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Michael Chung

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Stacey Miller

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